Word Aligned - Latest Comments in Python on Ice

Re: Python on Ice

tag — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:23:13 -0000

Thanks for the heads-up, Tim. Clearly the Python 2 to Python 3 migration is breaking new ground. However thorough the planning, I guess there's a degree of making things up as we go along. No one has done this before.
It's one thing to analyse the changes as a Python insider, or experienced user. I do wonder what newcomers to the language make of the dual language versions.

Re: Python on Ice

tag — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:05:50 -0000

Right. That's why the Europython goody bag code fails under Python 3.0 (and 3.1).

Re: Python on Ice

tag — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:04:46 -0000

Thanks for the extra information, Jesse. I think this change of focus is right, and important. I would argue, though, that it is the strength of the core language which has made so many people willing to contribute to the standard library, tests, documentation etc. Python is a pleasure to write and use.
Maintaining two versions of Python is less pleasant.

Re: Python on Ice

tag — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:00:31 -0000

The comparison with C is an interesting one. C has changed, but many C99 changes aren't widely known or used. C is a low level language often used (as by CPython) as a stable porting layer - people don't want it to change. Also, it models a computer architecture which is fundamentally unchanged.
As a high-level language, I would argue Python has wider freedom to evolve.

Re: Python on Ice

Tim Lesher — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:49:39 -0000

The language moratorium isn't about getting end-users to migrate to Python 3. It's about giving alternate implementations a chance to get caught up with CPython.

On the other hand, the mechanism for getting people to move to Python 3 was announced at Pycon 2008 (almost a year ago). It's called "no new features are being accepted into the 2.x branch at all, unless they're back-ports from 3.x". That's a different thing from the core moratorium Guido proposed recently.

Re: Python on Ice

yuv — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 04:07:12 -0000

rot-13 isn't in python 3.0, go figure...

Re: Python on Ice

absaffasfasfasfas — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 00:27:31 -0000

There are no core language changes so badly needed that it will be a problem to have to wait a couple years for them to make it in.

Re: Python on Ice

Robert — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:57:20 -0000

They are only halting on the language itself. They are still cleaning up the std library. I actually think it is a great idea and I think it will make Python 3 a very solid platform in the long run.

Re: Python on Ice

jay@thecapacity — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 21:32:50 -0000

Well, I for one would love to see the ':' requirement for definitions and loops go away.

There's already whitespace there, i.e. '\n' so I've never seen the point of it!

Re: Python on Ice

jonathan oberg  — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 20:36:41 -0000

Re: Python on Ice

mentat_enki — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 19:40:21 -0000

Also, if you look at the tremendous ubiquitousness of the default implementation-layer language and its history as an basically unchanging standard (here meaning ANSI C), you can see why freezing the language itself isn't necessarily a "bad thing". I mean, even if there are still appreciable flaws (not just characteristic quirks like significant whitespace) in the python language itself as it is, in the words of Dennis Ritchie: "C is quirky, flawed, and an enormous success." I think I'd have to agree. :)

Re: Python on Ice

tag — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 18:01:15 -0000

Good point, thanks Jason.

Re: Python on Ice

Ja$on Prado — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 17:05:31 -0000

Guido goes on to say, though:
"Note, the moratorium would only cover the language itself plus
built-in functions, not the standard library."

The two best changes there, the 25 and 31 changes, are just library changes. There's years of work to do on the standard library and some of the biggest gains to be had are there.